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Most users ever online was 66 on Sat May 28, 2011 5:55 pm


    expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

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    donwalk
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    expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

    Post by donwalk on Tue May 31, 2011 1:18 pm

    there's been volumes written about this subject and i know I'm not going to solve the issue in this posting. I'm attempting to stimulate thought about using a proper tool for a specific application.

    i know, i have seen, and have used expanding pellets, bullets and broadhead arrows on live game and i know the affect they can have on living tissue.

    i submit this observation as food for thought when selecting a pellet for hunting: do you really NEED an expensive, high expansion pellet for the game you pursue?

    will it have the necessary PENETRATION to do what need be done? after all, it does require more energy to drive an expanding projectile deeper than a non-expanding projectile doesn't it?

    why is it that large African game has to be taken with SOLID, non expanding bullets? to PENETRATE into vital organs...why is it that the more successful expanding projectiles have to be launched from higher powered arms? in order to drive the expanding projectile deeply enough to inflict the damage necessary.

    so, if I'm gonna be hunting rabbit, for example, do i really NEED a 950fps, 50 grain expanding point pellet? after all, rabbits are not armor plated triceratops, they're thin skinned, fast moving animals that are easily put down with proper projectile placement; a brain the size of an acorn, lungs the size of a ping-pong ball and a heart the size of a nickel or quarter, they're hard to hit but NOT hard to destroy/stop with a projectile.

    a reasonably fast traveling, .177 pellet, lets say a 10.5 grain domed, moving at, lets say, 700 fps...don't you think that will inflict some very lethal damage on an animal the size of a puppy or kitten? proportionately, it would equate to introducing a .50 cal or 20mm projectile to a human body would it not?

    the amount of damage to living tissue is paramount to the quick put down of the animal is it not? the amount of damage inflicted can be seen in two ways: deep and narrow as from a non-expanding projectile and wide and shallow as from an expanding point. (this is based on the assumption the projectiles are both moving at the same speed. the expanding point will not penetrate as deeply.) which will inflict the most damage? which will bleed most and fastest? another good comparison of wound effectiveness is a stab wound...as with a knife, sword or broadhead arrow. massive bleeding is the results. read up on the dynamics of bleeding if you aren't acquainted with it.

    there's a couple of simple, inexpensive ways to "test" your selection of pellet.

    go to "the depot" get some duct seal and shoot into it from distances you estimate you'll be shooting; see how far your selection penetrates. do the same with an aluminum soda pop can or plastic water bottle that approximates the size of the critter you'll be stalking.

    i think you'll be surprised with the results. i once shot a one gallon milk bottle, filled with water, from 25 yds with a .17 HMR and was stunned to see it didn't even penetrate both sides of the bottle! so...imagine what results would be with a .177 pellet moving at 700 fps; expanding point or not. here again...size, speed, momentum all add up to...meat in the larder...

    this issue is highly controversial and my idea here is to stir your thoughts. my belief is that there is no, absolute, ONE correct answer.

    what do you think?
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    Abda
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    Re: expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

    Post by Abda on Tue May 31, 2011 1:37 pm

    donwalk wrote:there's been volumes written about this subject and i know I'm not going to solve the issue in this posting. I'm attempting to stimulate thought about using a proper tool for a specific application.

    i know, i have seen, and have used expanding pellets, bullets and broadhead arrows on live game and i know the affect they can have on living tissue.

    i submit this observation as food for thought when selecting a pellet for hunting: do you really NEED an expensive, high expansion pellet for the game you pursue?

    will it have the necessary PENETRATION to do what need be done? after all, it does require more energy to drive an expanding projectile deeper than a non-expanding projectile doesn't it?

    why is it that large African game has to be taken with SOLID, non expanding bullets? to PENETRATE into vital organs...why is it that the more successful expanding projectiles have to be launched from higher powered arms? in order to drive the expanding projectile deeply enough to inflict the damage necessary.

    so, if I'm gonna be hunting rabbit, for example, do i really NEED a 950fps, 50 grain expanding point pellet? after all, rabbits are not armor plated triceratops, they're thin skinned, fast moving animals that are easily put down with proper projectile placement; a brain the size of an acorn, lungs the size of a ping-pong ball and a heart the size of a nickel or quarter, they're hard to hit but NOT hard to destroy/stop with a projectile.

    a reasonably fast traveling, .177 pellet, lets say a 10.5 grain domed, moving at, lets say, 700 fps...don't you think that will inflict some very lethal damage on an animal the size of a puppy or kitten? proportionately, it would equate to introducing a .50 cal or 20mm projectile to a human body would it not?

    the amount of damage to living tissue is paramount to the quick put down of the animal is it not? the amount of damage inflicted can be seen in two ways: deep and narrow as from a non-expanding projectile and wide and shallow as from an expanding point. (this is based on the assumption the projectiles are both moving at the same speed. the expanding point will not penetrate as deeply.) which will inflict the most damage? which will bleed most and fastest? another good comparison of wound effectiveness is a stab wound...as with a knife, sword or broadhead arrow. massive bleeding is the results. read up on the dynamics of bleeding if you aren't acquainted with it.

    there's a couple of simple, inexpensive ways to "test" your selection of pellet.

    go to "the depot" get some duct seal and shoot into it from distances you estimate you'll be shooting; see how far your selection penetrates. do the same with an aluminum soda pop can or plastic water bottle that approximates the size of the critter you'll be stalking.

    i think you'll be surprised with the results. i once shot a one gallon milk bottle, filled with water, from 25 yds with a .17 HMR and was stunned to see it didn't even penetrate both sides of the bottle! so...imagine what results would be with a .177 pellet moving at 700 fps; expanding point or not. here again...size, speed, momentum all add up to...meat in the larder...

    this issue is highly controversial and my idea here is to stir your thoughts. my belief is that there is no, absolute, ONE correct answer.

    what do you think?
    I'm surely going to get in on this one as soon as I can. Don't like posting from the office as a member poster under this sign on.

    But wanted to say this is a VERY good topic that I'd personally like to see more posted about: Excellent idea.

    I'll weigh in as soon as I can get to the den where my personal sign on is a better fit for posting wearing my member hat.

    Great idea, donwalk. Thanks for the stimulating conversation.

    I'll catch up later as soon as I hit the post office and back again. I've got to see a man about a dog!
    -Admin


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    Squirrel
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    Re: expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

    Post by Squirrel on Tue May 31, 2011 11:00 pm

    I think the answers to your questions can find a happy medium at Field Use of an Airgun By Robert Beeman. For the most part, I agree with them. Scrol down to about half way down the page and you'll find a handy chart.

    But from my personal and unprofessional stand point, I'd had to say it's about the point of impact as in where you hit and are able to affect a kill shot, i.e., head, heart, spine, etc. It's more about hitting the kill zone. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement! What good is any of them if you can't hit the right place with the right caliber? Check out Nomadic Pirate: He takes out big sows with a .25 all the time but also where he shoots them . . . In the head with a one shot drop.

    You CAN take out a raccoon with a .177 pellet *if* you hit him just right but odds are that you won't and almost always the animal will suffer and may even escape to die a miserable death out of your reach. No good hunter wants that. You may end up pumping a LOT of those .177 into him before he finally gives up and lets go his efforts. Raccoons are tough, man.

    Trauma is generally divided into penetrating or blunt trauma. Penetrating trauma refers to gunshot wounds, stab wounds, and injury from projectiles. Blunt trauma can include assaults, motor vehicle accidents, falls, explosions, and other force mechanisms. But, if we divide this into fractions when strictly talking about bullet wounds, the same can be said about trauma vs. penetrating wounds such as a pass through shot where the round goes completely through the target body and trauma where sheer force transfers the energy to the tissues creating much more damage.

    When I'm shooting at game, I'm trying to find a medium between trauma and penetrating techniques. Good case in point, I have a Sumatra .25 2500 500cc reservoir Air gun. In this I can shoot hollow points that will expand tremendously making them a much larger caliber, for all intents and purposes here, with penetrating power that is still creating a lot of trauma during impact as it penetrates. The Crow Mags and the Beman Silver Point Hollow Points are excellent choices for small game with this Air gun in excess of 900 FPS unless I turn the power wheel down more. I can get more, but, I don't need it for what I am shooting and the trajectory maintains equality with what my scope is zeroed out for that pellet at that speed for many shots. I carry, counting the one in the chamber, 3 magazines when I go on patrol for the varmints around my neck of the woods (I sometimes have to fire off a shot and see if I can get Mr. Vanishing Varmint to expose himself since I'm not all that big on walking anymore) and the ability to shoot many shots off one Air Fill is a big boon to me.

    However, I have an Evanix Rainstorm .22 that I'm thinking about turning the power when I shoot some 26.x Eun Jin Pellets because of the fact that the shape of the pellets at 820 FPS is most certainly going to result in a pass through shot and I've got close quarters in some places here where I fire off my Air Guns.

    But say I were going for a rabbit. I'd use either of these without issue. Or my Infinity .22 loaded with 32.4 Eun Jin with the shaper domes at just under 1,000 FPS: Why the later? Because I can surely go for a body vital organ shot and know that it, without a doubt, can penetrate the thick fur and or bone should the varmint turn at the last minute or I waver in my bead on the critter.

    Hog, Coyote, Fox, and even deer get my .45 if and when I ever get the chance to take it out on such a hunt. I've done my home work and I know that my EPP/UG (El Paso Pete Ultimate Game Hunter for those that haven't heard of them before) at 150 grain will do the trick. Although, if it were for sure hog, I'd like to have a heavier bullet and maybe not a hollow point, depending on the situation but it's a tossup for me at this time. Never the less, with a good chance at good shot placemat, I'd take out any of these with a hot .22 or .25 or 9mm.

    As far as big game in Africa I think it was referred, you'd have to look at the fact that you have to penetrate a tone of hide before you can enter the body cavity and or thick bone in the head. Once the projectile has then entered the body and gotten past the hide, maybe then enough trauma via impact can be created to do the damage needed to effect a good clean kill. (As clean as kills go before I get hung up to dry on that one) But this is all supposition for me. Some of this is book learned and some of it is hands on. Smaller game I'm getting pretty good at. If this were the Hunting Range, I'd post a couple of pictures of retrieved bullets/Pellets from actual kills to express my point. Seeing is believing and gives an understanding I just can't get from books.

    Now, I've hit a squirrel with a hollow point .45 bullet from my Sam Yang: The darn thing was dead but just didn't know it and would have died in pain up there if I'd of left him in the old squirrel's nest he'd ducked into. The only thing I had at the time to penetrate that nest was my .45 and when I hit him, half the nest came down with him and his middle blown away with only his spine keeping him together. But if you look at this in terms of depth of flesh, think about this in proportion to say a hog or dear. If I had made the same shot at a dear or hog *not* in the right shot placement, yea, it would have done some serious damage but the hog or deer would then be on a run that would probably find him evading my efforts to find him. I know it's graphic and if it offends any one I'll remove this part.

    So to sum it up: Yea, I do think the higher FPS is needed in Air Gunning if you are going to be hunting with it. No offense, but a bottle of water or some duck tape just won't give you what you need to know in terms of what the projectile can do to your point of aim with whatever it is that you are feeding your air gun. You may be fooled into thinking, “yea, this’ll do the trick, look what water did to it!”

    I'm probably never going to be one to agree that a .177 is good for much more than plinking (shooting at cans, bottles, targets, aggravating birds or mice/rats). I'd personally never use one against anything with body mass and body mass is what I'm trying to do damage to when I shoot at it. I want to hit the target, have it penetrate what it needs to and then expand and transfer it's energy, completely, if I can get it to, to create as much internal trauma as possible.

    That's MY take on it and, for one more time for a disclaimer, I'm an infant in the world of Air Guns and I'm still learning and I may one day be forced to eat crow. You never know, we all learn something new every day.

    But do check out Field Use of an Airgun By Robert Beeman. I think you'll find it enlightening and maybe shed some light on the fact that what comes out of the barrel as in FPS is not what you are looking at POI (Point of Impatct) and distance and the arch of your shot have everything to do with it so when you go looking at Air Guns for comparison, try looking at the distances you will be shooting and use a chart like Ballistic Reticle Calculator(BRC)or get the pro version Chair Gun Pro and check the POI FPE (Point of Impact Foot Pounds of Energy) at the distance for a given pellet at a given speed and it will give you a much better outlook on what is needed to reach the figures need to affect a good kill at the distances you think you will be shooting at. It was a great aid in my learning experiences . . . still is.

    Well, this is already a book and will bore most to tears but that's my two cents worth on the subject, for better or worse. Plus I 'm just tired of writing!

    One of the reasons I created this forum is so that I could learn. Please correct me where I’m wrong or my thinking has gone awry. But please be gentle! I’m an infant in the world of Air Guns!


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    pcp4me
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    Expanding pellets

    Post by pcp4me on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:16 pm

    To make it short, in higher powered guns I use them as proper penetration is not an issue. I believe in them. Even before getting into air guns, I used hollow points in my .22lr and expanding bullets in my center fire rifles and pistols.

    In lower powered pellet guns, though, they don't have enough velocity for good penetration and those I use pointed pellets.
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    Squirrel
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    Re: expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

    Post by Squirrel on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:36 am

    pcp4me wrote:To make it short, in higher powered guns I use them as proper penetration is not an issue. I believe in them. Even before getting into air guns, I used hollow points in my .22lr and expanding bullets in my center fire rifles and pistols.

    In lower powered pellet guns, though, they don't have enough velocity for good penetration and those I use pointed pellets.
    One picture is worth a thousand words: Check out this Hunting Range Post

    Can't post it here but that is a .22 Preditor Polymag 16 grain pellet shot at 850 FPS from a Walther Falcon Hunter single shot Nitro Piston break barrel Air Rifle from PA with trigger replacement. I feel that these types of pellets qualify as hollow points and prove what my point is.

    Enough said. : Very Happy


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    .22 Rainstorm highly modified
    .22 Infinity highly modified
    .25 Infinity converted from .22 Infinity highly modified
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    This is all I need for what I intend to do Folks!
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    grizzlyadams
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    Re: expanding pellets vs non-expanding pellets

    Post by grizzlyadams on Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:07 am

    i really like polymags for hunting light bodied game. squirrels rabbits, etc. when i get up in to heavier stuff like fox, coon and woodchucks( my chuck body count is usually 100-150 a year, roughly half with airguns) i prefer a domed pellet as i head shoot and i have to many chucks make it back into the hole after being hit with polys. i dont think the polymag penetrates deeply enough, and the faster you push it, the faster it opens. i usually stick to cp for my bigger small game, or eun jin domes,and i have one of my condors set up to shoot 22 cast bullets.only my opinion, but i leave the expanding stuff for the easy to kill critters... yes a squirrel is easy to kill compared to a big old whistlepig!

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