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    airgun calibers and power levels

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    grizzlyadams
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    airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by grizzlyadams on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:09 am

    just some random thoughts on useful (for hunting pesting) power levels, for my own use anyway. for my indoor barn shooting of pigeons and rats, i use a 177(rws34) about 12fpe or so(that being said i don't really use that caliber for any other use besides bird feeder defense) my go to caliber for most of my outings is 22 caliber. in a springer i prefer them to start out at least 15-16fpe but have a few that knock on the 27-29fpe range. i dont see much use for a pcp unless its putting out at least 25fpe or more in that caliber as i can hit nickles at 50 yds with my rws48 at 21fpe 9 out of ten times so why bother without carrying extra charging equipment. before you tear into me, i'm talking about that specific power level, i have and hunt with pcps in that caliber that are in the 30 to 70+fpe range for chucks. as far as 25 caliber goes, if it's a springer i want at least 25-27fpe or i'll stick with my 22. if it's a pcp 25 i dont really see the point if it does give at least mid 40fpe or more. i think that those are the easiest power levels for me to find a pellet that has an acceptable trajectory for my style of hunting and the fact that if i'm going to use a pcp to hunt, i want some noticable gain to justify the fact that i'm not sticking with the simplicity of my springers. just some random thinking while i'm having my coffee. sorry if i bored anyone Embarassed
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by grizzlyadams on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:12 am

    i know i left out 20 but thats because while i have a few in that caliber, i just never seem to shoot them

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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by longhunter on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:56 am

    i'm a power junky. i'll take as much as i can get, without sacrificing accuracy. sometimes that equates to overkill, but, at least i'm ready for anything that presents itself. ( that includes the unfortunate fly that landed on my target and everything in between ).Laughing
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by grizzlyadams on Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:03 am

    meant to say dont see much use for 25 if it does not give at least mid forties fpe Very Happy i'm also a power junkie when it comes to precharged and if it doesn't give me a significant gain in power, i'd rather keep it simple with the springers. my careers in 25 put out over 80, talonp almost 60, air ranger 80,new condor in progress, and one that is a secret right now Laughing

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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by longhunter on Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:19 am

    i must admit i detuned my condor quite a bit to get it to shoot benjamin domes. but, i still get 56 + fpe. @ 980 fps. that'll do , for now, Cool .
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by Squirrel on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 pm

    longhunter wrote:i must admit i detuned my condor quite a bit to get it to shoot benjamin domes. but, i still get 56 + fpe. @ 980 fps. that'll do , for now, Cool .
    Every thing but the grain . . .

    I'm guessing now but, 25 cal .28 grain to shot the BDs?


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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by longhunter on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:39 pm

    on the money, squirrel Smile .

    couldn't get them to group very well above 1000 fps. not sure why. i was getting nickel size groups at 50 yds. turned it down to around 980 and now i average sub-dime sized groups at 50, asevidenced by the groups i posted elsewhere on the forum.

    i switched from kodiaks ( 31 gr ) . those i could chuck at 1050 all day long , but i got tired of the fliers. they were almost predictable. about every 5th or 6th shot would go off into left field somewhere. what did hit on target was nothing short of spectacular, though. if you're curious, check out my album on photobucket. search scottdeckers album, you'll see what i'm talking about. i even cut them waaay back, still the same scenario. too bad, they really hit the target with some authority.

    that's why i'm looking into a custom barrel and swageed bullets. i want a jackhammer that is capable of moa at 100+ yds.. that, and i just can't leave well enough alone Laughing .
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by Squirrel on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:49 pm

    Yea, I cheated and used the Hawke Program to plug in some numbers I thought would fit. Took less than a minute and I had the weight right---or thought so and now know I did.

    I can tell you the why on the dome shaped pellets with a wasp tail or diablo style pellets not as accurate at the higher FPS. It's an air dynamic thing that is purely related to the shape of the pellet.

    See, as you know, about 1100 fps, depending on sea level and temp, is the door of the sonic barrier for any pellet or bullet. Once that envelope has been reached, the air gets in the way and it's like the pellet hits a wall, so to speak that it has to go through and, it will either tip the pellet or make it, in the very least, unstable---the barrier and the shape combined. I've got a picture perfect visual in my head but I don't think I can articulate it very well. But I'm trying. Keyhole shots on the target can be a dead giveaway for this effect.

    Most of the Kodiaks will preform well in the low to just under high 900s---all these, of course that I speak are the diablo style.

    Too, when it hits the limit in that envelope, even close to it, it gets a double whammy: It hits the problem spot then has to come back out of it as well. Sort of like a sticky spot in the air along the trajectory.

    A real pro that explained this all to me like Will Piatt can make it seem so simple having you do the "I coulda had a V8!" knock with the heel of your hand to your head. But with his help and a lot of reading with my own hard school of knocks, I've come to get a good impression even if I may have a little bit of it wrong---but not much, I don't think.

    Just from what I know and have been told, I think you'd have to go to a cylindrical shape with a good twist to manage the higher than sound speed accuracy thing. Makes my head hurt so I just stick to the more common speeds. Else you get the "almost predictable every other 5 or 6th shot flyer".

    Just MHO but I presonally think that there is a definite barrier that you have to overcome with that sonic wall---like you either have to stay a good notch or two down from it or get the way the hell over it--one or the other but no middle ground unless you have a HUGE chunk of lead to do it with--and at that point it becomes, to me, impractical.

    Feel free to jump in and straighten out my lack of understanding if you see that I need some help in my quest to understand these things. I try,really I do but I know too that I may not have it all just so . . .

    Tell you what though, I use the 32.4 grain .22 caliber in my Career Infinity giving me about 60 FPE out of the bbl and around 45 FPE at the POI at 35 yards. I'd have to look at what that would be at 50 yards but it can't be anything to sneeze at.

    I get those numbers by pushing it out at 933 FPS. This is just a notch or two dialed down on the power wheel (love that feature!) Deviations from that 933to the higher 800s isn't such a bad group but below that the poi starts that obvious down and left tell tale sign of leaving the power bell curve. I can get about 18 shots with good groups with it and that enough to use the three mags I've got with it.Above these mid 900s then they'll have a decided mind of their own on what they choose to hit.

    What kills me is that when I started to try to hit some target goals for the RSP we working on I kept thinking that I should be able to do SO much better in a bigger caliber-----NOT

    Uh, uh. Don't work that way. It's weight and power. Diameter against the air, surface tension on the pellet in the air all has a role but really, I'd have to have a 43 grain in .25 at some pretty high FPS to really make the same kind of statement if I wanted to really make a notch to climb to from that 60 FPE on the Infinity. And what I like so much is that the crossman mag will accept them! This ought to be fun trying to even if it may not work like I want. Feller can try, right?

    But for the diablo I think you'll find from 930 to 950 to be your optimum, or there about, speed to push them.

    Those Exacts are pretty good too. I've got one though, and I'll find it later and post it so I don't mar the name and make sure I get it right, that is really slick as far as the air thing goes. Where as you can get great performance out of a majority of diablo styled pellets this one really shows off in yardage leaving the others behind. Darn if I can remember what it is though! I should know it right off! I'll get back to you on it.

    Hey, can you shoot round ball shot out of that one? I'd really like to see your result at those higher speeds. Maybe one day I can talk you into a little testing just to satisfy my curiosity. You woldn't think that round ball gets the job done in the ways it does---doesn't make sense righ off until you start getting that picture I was talking about in your head just right.

    Ugh, this is getting long.

    Anyway, I have had some spinal issues crop up but the weather is being really good here. I'm hoping, if the good lord is willing the creek don't rise and my back holding out to do it then maybe I can get down to some shooting to post at least at 40 yards for the match this weekend---knock on wood.

    I've already got a few at 35 yards posted but I've got a feeling you guys would have to break down to shooting official style targets with one shot to a ring to count as most of all yours would be like mine at such a short range: One hole shots so you'd not be able to tell just how tight the group is.

    Maybe we should do that? Use the Shoot Meet style targets with one shot to each like some of the ones I and others have already posted? It would be more accurate that a grouped set of shots.

    Ah, dunno on that one.

    Anyway, got carried away!

    Looking for the "off" button now.

    L8trs!


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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by longhunter on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:27 am

    i thought about round ball, but never got around to it. didn't want to waste a whole bag just to see if they'd work or not. i really have my doubts about their accuracy. the standard rate of twist of a roundball barrel is 1 in 72" for black powder. i think that the twist in an ag barrel would be way too fast. i could be wrong, though. i may have to see if i can beg a handfull off some one, just to satisfy my curiosity. if i remember right, #2 hornady buckshot was 24.7 grains. that should still be in the ballpark for around 1000- 1010 fps. in my current configuration. i think.

    i thought i put that idea to bed a long time ago. i guess not. now i HAVE to try it or i won't be able to sleep at night Laughing . the results might even be worth the effort.

    shooting single bulls might not be such a bad idea. it would still show consistency. post it on the other thread and see what flies. you got my vote, anyway. i don't care what the target looks like, just as long as i'm getting some trigger time. and bragging rights Very Happy, heh, heh.

    diablo pellets were designed to dump their energy rapidly, so as not to carry out so far that they become a danger beyond a certian range. that is their inherent design flaw. we must also remember that they were never designed to be propelled at the velocities that we are driving them today. or at the ranges we commonly shoot at. that is why you normally have to sift through any number of different styles, weights, and even brands of pellets before you find one that your gun will shoot consistently well.

    add to that the myriad of other mitigating factors, such as velocity, twist rate, internal barrel dimensions- consistency- quality, optics quality or lack thereof, shooter ability or lack thereof, as well as the usual suspects like wind, elevation and barometric pressure. some days, it makes you want to pull your hair out. ( providing you have hair, of course ). but, at least for me, that is half the fun of it. always trying to improve my equipment, myself. what else have i got to do? annoy the wife, pick the lint out of my belly button? ( which, by the way, also serves to annoy the wife ).

    it's way past time that there were improvements made in the ammunition that we feed our " iron mistresses ". and, it will only come about when people like ourselves, who keep pushing the envelope, make it so, and in so doing, share our knowledge with others, our failures as well as our succeses. 'nuff said.

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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by roachcreek on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:56 pm

    Grizzley,

    I am a bullet caster and as such it gives me the access to air rifle powers from 600 FPE to 132 FPE.

    The 600 FPE comes from shooting 420 grain bullets from my Ranger 45.
    50 yard group


    The 132FPE I get from what I call my 25 LBT rifle and Carbine. At 140 yards the rifle still has more velocity than the 25 ACP has at the muzzle but with a heavier and better designed bullet. The best group so far has been 4.5 inches, that does not sound so good until you consider it was shot at 260 yards.

    Note the velocity is acutally 1030 FPS with the 56 grain bullet. 1185 was a chrony error.


    It took a lot of time and work to get to this point, but I can shoot this rifle accurately to 260 yards, and with a 80 yard zero, you can hold right on a coyote sized animal to 80 yards for a chest shot.

    The carbine 25 LBT I have detuned and it groups into 1/2 inch at the same power level as a 25 ACP, it is a short light rifle on a Talon frame and a delightful carbine to carry in the field.


    Then on the Diablo side I have two Royales, one a shortened and lightened 500 and the other a stock 400.


    The Royales are at 45 and 33 FPE and also superbly accurate, but long range shooting has shown that the Diablo design has a 10-20 % tendancy to corkscrew past 135 yards and beyond, the further you go the worse it gets. But then remember it was designed for the first rifled air gun barrels and discovered to be a great projectile for shorter ranges as an after thought.


    The Royales shown are being built to be identical in glass and length and weight, or as close as I can get them. I have a way to go on them, but right now it is confusing which one I am picking up.

    Regards,

    Roachcreek




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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by Squirrel on Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:09 pm

    I'm speachless.



    All I can say is WOW.



    Very cool, Roach!





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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by grizzlyadams on Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:20 pm

    roach, you have some awesome rigs there i play with cartridge rifles and muzzle loaders also so my efforts, and money gets spread out. i should just stick to one i guess and concentrate my efforts...... nah.. i'm having too much fun!!!!i love airguns, black powder in muzzleloaders and cartridge, and precision long range rifle! putting together a savage BAS K 10 in 338 lapua right now. hey, gotta have enough gun for woodchucks!!!!!lmao
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by Squirrel on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:42 pm

    longhunter wrote:i thought about round ball, but never got around to it. didn't want to waste a whole bag just to see if they'd work or not. i really have my doubts about their accuracy. the standard rate of twist of a roundball barrel is 1 in 72" for black powder. i think that the twist in an ag barrel would be way too fast. i could be wrong, though. i may have to see if i can beg a handfull off some one, just to satisfy my curiosity. if i remember right, #2 hornady buckshot was 24.7 grains. that should still be in the ballpark for around 1000- 1010 fps. in my current configuration. i think.

    i thought i put that idea to bed a long time ago. i guess not. now i HAVE to try it or i won't be able to sleep at night Laughing . the results might even be worth the effort.

    shooting single bulls might not be such a bad idea. it would still show consistency. post it on the other thread and see what flies. you got my vote, anyway. i don't care what the target looks like, just as long as i'm getting some trigger time. and bragging rights Very Happy, heh, heh.

    diablo pellets were designed to dump their energy rapidly, so as not to carry out so far that they become a danger beyond a certian range. that is their inherent design flaw. we must also remember that they were never designed to be propelled at the velocities that we are driving them today. or at the ranges we commonly shoot at. that is why you normally have to sift through any number of different styles, weights, and even brands of pellets before you find one that your gun will shoot consistently well.

    add to that the myriad of other mitigating factors, such as velocity, twist rate, internal barrel dimensions- consistency- quality, optics quality or lack thereof, shooter ability or lack thereof, as well as the usual suspects like wind, elevation and barometric pressure. some days, it makes you want to pull your hair out. ( providing you have hair, of course ). but, at least for me, that is half the fun of it. always trying to improve my equipment, myself. what else have i got to do? annoy the wife, pick the lint out of my belly button? ( which, by the way, also serves to annoy the wife ).

    it's way past time that there were improvements made in the ammunition that we feed our " iron mistresses ". and, it will only come about when people like ourselves, who keep pushing the envelope, make it so, and in so doing, share our knowledge with others, our failures as well as our succeses. 'nuff said.
    Excellent post, Mr. Long. We agree on most if not all of what you said.

    By the bye, I've got a round ball .25 mold and a smelter pot. I just need a few things like a handle, a ladle, etc. Then, of course, the time to do it. Then too, I'll have to have time to screw it all up few times before I can get it right---if ever. But I've got some sheet lead and some bullets that I won't be needing in a few particular calibers that I intend to melt down---recycling and all that.

    I normally wouldn't quote the whole post but I couldn't find any place to cut it off with an ellipse without messing up the well put together language of your post---would have seemed like I was making a point or something where ever I left off so I just didn't do it. Happens that way sometimes.

    I'd give a penny or two to sit out with you and put our pellet and bullet eaters through their paces. I could do it all day if I had a little help. It would be worth it, I know it would be.

    Regardless, my better half calls and I know who the chairman of the ways-and-means-committee is so I'll take my leave.

    Great post though.

    No promises on when but soon enough I'll shoot you some of my balls (sorry, just couldn't resist! Razz ) for you to try out.

    Aw, that was bad, huh? I crack me up sometimes!


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    .303 Wolverine Straight off the shelf---needs no modification!
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by longhunter on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:23 pm

    be warned, they will be returned mangled beyond recognition Laughing .

    thanks for the cudo's on the post. i have my moments Smile .
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    Re: airgun calibers and power levels

    Post by Abda on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:30 am

    longhunter wrote:be warned, they will be returned mangled beyond recognition Laughing .

    thanks for the cudo's on the post. i have my moments Smile .
    HA! We used to have a saying 'round here: Show it to me and I'll show you the other end of it! Razz

    Serously, when I get some made up I'd be honored if you'd give them a try in the right AG.

    Wonder what Joe is going to offer? Eh?



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