Marauder .22 shot string

Haven't had much time to shoot lately, so went out to the shop and ran this string tonight.
Started at 3400lbs using 18.1 JSBs 5' from chroney
1-899, 2-886, 3-887, 4-888, 5-895, 6-903, 7-897, 8-907, 9-915, 10-920, 11-927, 12-929, 13-932, 14-927, 15-928, 2800lbs 16-935, 17-937, 18-934, 19-934, 20-933, 21-931, 2650lbs 22-931, 23-928, 24-929, 25-924, 26-921, 2500lbs 27-920, 28-916, 29-914, 30-911, 31-908, 2400lbs 32-904, 33-901, 34-902, 35-894, 2250lbs 36-891, 37-887, 38-882, 39-878, 40-874, 41-870, 42-868, 43-861, 44-855, 45-849, 46-841, 47-836, 48-829, 49-823, 50-816
Max energy was 35.3, this rifle is Gary Davis tuned with a LW 12MM x 20" barrel and a GD tube extension.

Abda they are most likely using the aluminum pellets, or non lead pellets. They are much lighter and get faster velocities. I am surprised you guys are filling your Mrods to over 3000psi, i thought 3000psi was the maximum fill pressure for them? I never tempt fate, as you well know I try to be cautious and especially so with a potential explosive device held up to my face. Just imagine multiplying the LDC episode by 10 and think how bad an air tube blowing would be? Anyway I am sure the manufacturers are using the non lead pellets to get their posted velocities, it looks better for them on paper. Some of them now state that the higher velocities are obtained with non lead pellets, they sell them at Pyramid and they are more expensive. Not sure why anyone would want to use them as they do not give the same fpe as the lead pellets. Talk to you later my friend JC

Abda I understand what you are saying but my personal opinion on something like this is it does not matter how much another person, may, or may not know, exceeding the recommended pressure can leave you in a very vulnerable position. If and that is a big if, something goes wrong and you end up with huge medical bills you really have no comeback on Crosman, you can hardly say my buddy does it and it worked for him, lol. You get my drift? If you stay within the correct parameters and something goes horribly wrong because of a manufacturing fault in the tube and it fails, at least you should be able to persuade the manufacturer to cover the medical expenses incurred by it. I am not into suing people or firms but in a case like that they should be responsible for paying your medical fees. I got bitten rather badly by a friend of mines dog once when I visited his shop. I had my auto business and he was doing a rag top for an old Mercedes I was restoring, he was out and I approached his dog who was always very friendly with me, and it bit my leg very badly. His brother ran out and immediately said we have insurance, lol I told him I don't care about that but he is buying me a new pair of jeans and paying for my doctors bill. I got stiched up and got a new pair of jeans, cost him a total of about $75, and cost me a week off work, I was purple from my knee to my groin and it looked like I had been shot with a very dark center with a hole stitched up. Needless to say on future visits I refused to get out of the car until he had his dog locked away. I mean what would have happened if a mother and daughter had gone to see him and the dog had attacked the child? He still let the dog run loose after it had bitten me, maybe I should have sued him to get the point home! Anyway I felt right in not doing it at the time, but felt rather amazed after the fact that the dog was still allowed to run lose, after all it is a business open to the public. The point I guess I am trying to make his cover your ass in the event of something bad happening and needing help with paying hospital or medical bills because of it, JC

Point well taken and equally well demonstrated.

But for matters of conversation, I'll accept his efforts for what they seem to be and not a recomendation.

Still, there is something to be said about CYA (cover your arse) when it comes to having a back up plan.

Good points all the way around. I got to learn something from every post made here as well as in the act of posting my own!

Sidebar: Unless someone thinks this should be addressed by the council? Or the orignal post edited to include a disclaimer? I'm fine with what ever you guys want to do---I'm just along for the ride here.

Abda I do not think you are responsible for what people post on here or what information people act on. We are all adults on here and if someone does something and someone else decides to do the same thing I do not think you can be held responsible for it. Now here in CA everyone wants the easy buck and suing someone is the easiest way to make it. I do not think you need to edit out anything just use a general disclaimer that the site does not necessarily agree with any technical information posted on the site by members. It is up to individual members to do their own research to check on the validity of any claims or technical information posted.
Chat with you later my friend JC

Well, whatever you guys think is best.

Thanks for the input and notable notes.

But truth be told, I never knew the M-rod was capable of those kinds of figures. I'd really be interested in what a .25 M-rod would do. Hope someone has some time and one of the .25's that they'd be willing to post with such detail as he did.

He's got the collector in me wanting to go out and find a way to land one now! I've heard SO much about them.

I don't want to get off topic so I'll rest easy knowing you guys have it under wraps.

Getting back to air pressure Abda I have found my Pneuma and Mrod have the highest velocities at between 2600 to 2800 psi.I would have said that might be the optimum pressure to get maximum velocities using air rifles except the big bores seem to make a nonsense of that theory. Unless they just fill them to much higher pressures to get the extra one or two shots out of the fill. You have some of the big bores, have you tested them with a fill to see what pressure they shoot best at?
You know Abda I have found that as the pressure gets much below 2500psi the poi changes, so I may start to do a bit more shooting with the TX200, I know the poi does not change with that and I am getting a lot more accurate with it now. After not using a springer for over a year it has taken me a while to get the correct hold again, I finally got it and now can shoot tight groups all day with it, what a great little gun it is. A bit more powerful then the HW97 and 77 I had, but they were 12fpe UK guns. But those two were one holers at 20 yards and I am not kidding, they were more accurate than most people can shoot.Talk to you soon about the project my friend, all the best, JC

As a matter of fact, I have with my Ultra 9mm and my .45 Sam Yang Big Bore.

Here's the thing about the 45 . . . And a good example of what I was talking about earlier.

Now, you would think that the recommended fill pressure of 3,000 PSI would be great on low setting. For those not familiar with this Air Rifle, it has two settings: One cock all the way back is high, and one cock half way back is low.

But, if you try to shoot it on low setting with 3,000 PSI, it valve locks: It will barely spit the bullet, no matter if it is an EPP/UG 155gr or a 226gr Arch Angel.

When I first got it back from being tuned, I thought this meant something was wrong with it but I plainly wasn't schooled on this issue at the time. But this is demonstrative of the fact that the back pressure in the tube is just too much for the hammer to clear enough passage of air to do the job. It locks out the valve. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly but I have it in my mind how it works and the .45 isn't effective on low power until the air fill pressure gets down to and below 2,000 PSI!

Now, you'd think you'd just get more shots at low power starting off with a full air tube at 3,000 PSI. But you don't. You have to USE those extra pounds of air in high power shots and THEN, and only then, can you use the low power setting for the rest of the air pressure left---that is *if* you intend on accuracy in FPE and POI.

Too, you can't just use high power all the way and get the same POI results. It's a learning curve of combinations you have to sort of feel your way through.

But I HAVE tried, and this makes me a fibber where I said I hadn’t done this but I just forgot and it wasn’t intentional but, yea, I did try 3,200 PSI in it and got the same results I spoke of earlier in inconsistent FPS shots---I've got a hand written string of shots off the master chrony I should dig up and post sometime to teach others what not to do such as have the chrony 2.5 feet from the end of the muzzle and start off with low and high and mix 'em up. But I was experimenting so I justify it that way.

The Ultra is a different story. It's got the power wheel opposed to the two position power cock on the .45. Not good but not as bad with an over fill of pressure. But, too, it was a problematic air gun before it went to the air gun doctor to have Will P. do his magic. And, as a matter of fact, I should be getting that one back into the fold come this Saturday. (Two hips and one hurray!)

Of course, I'll be doing more experimenting with it but I've learned my lesson about overfilling it. Absolutely no benefit for me that I can say passes muster.

This might be some of the craziness, and I agree about that, you spoke of big bore air guns and pressures. The make and model is going to be a big factor. Of course, like the Quackenbush custom stuff, you’d be way out of the norm of fill pressures but he does tell you about how the air rifle will perform under what pressures and what is recommended.

On your TX200, yea, that is what I was saying in another thread about the dependability of my Walther Falcon Hunter: It stays the same. But I do have a question: If I sit and cock, load and shoot just as fast as I can, I find that the nitro piston in my will fatigue a little thus lowering my FPS and slightly altering my POI. But really, that is not a real life situation and nothing but a test at the time. Time given between shots doesn’t find the piston getting tired on me. Have you put yours on the chrony and done this? It’s a true spring right? Much respect for the real spring deal, brother. Bit props: They are hard to shoot.

But, to tell you the truth, I almost feel like it’s cheating to do a target at 20 yards. It seems SO close to me. Now, with my only nitro piston and spring like air rifle, I can do alright and stay in the kill zone (a one inch square) on the target. I still get some that are way off due to operator error though. But with one of my PCPs, and one of the stronger scopes, I’m literally shooting at the lines or trying to hit the last part of the bull’s eye just so as to know that I actually hit it and didn’t stack one shot on top of the other. Get out to 30 yards and it’s a bit harder.

Well, I could go on an on and on and on about this. (nah? No kidding? J) I’ll stop here and leave this for another post in another thread on another day.

But don’t worry about the project. It’s all good. Always has been.

Well, we’ve about taken over his thread. I hope he doesn’t get perturbed at us!

Glad to see all the responses to this post, this Mrod is tuned and has a very heavy hammer spring. It's about 1.5 times harder to cock than my .25 Mrod is. If I started shooting at 2800 psi, it wouldn't get much of a bell curve if any. With these small bore guns, you need the fps to gain for about usually 8 to 10 shots and then return. If you can keep it from going up too high , the POI stays the same height. The 3400psi doesn't mean a lot, the Mrod gauge showed 3000psi, my fill gauge showed 3400. I'm going to be shopping for a high accuracy gauge to check my other gauges, almost all are at least 300psi different. The reservoir is 1/3 again as large as stock, one of the reasons the FPS went up for 19 shots. If the air tube extension wasn't on, it would only have risen for 12 shots. This gun is shooting too fast as it is and I will be slowing it down when I have time to devote to it. I would like to see the high FPS at about 875 or so. Get more shots that way also. I sure like that chart further up, really makes it easy to read. By the way, I would not recommend that these guns be filled this high as a steady diet. But it is a very common practice, especially with the Discovery often filled to 2500 rather than 2000.

Tonight, I'm going to fill to 2800 psi and try some heavier pellets for high FPE. On my first post, 2800psi was the highest speed. Will report back in an hour or two.

Well, I'm back. Figured out tonight that the gauge in the Mrod is hosed. I'll put another one in. I filled to 2800psi Mrod, which was 3100 on the fill gauge. I shot 25.4gr JSB Jumbo Monsters. It appears that the heavier pellets have a lower psi sweet spot than the 18.1's. Remember the gauge is toast.
1-773.5, 2-778.6, 3-779.2, 4-780.8, 5-791.7, 6-794.9, 7-800.8, 8-803.9, 9-804.4, 10-811.8, 11-811.2, 2700psi, 12-817, 13-822.9,
14-822, 2600psi, 15-826.3, 16-825.9, 17-822.9, 2600psi, 18-825.3, 19-823, 20-820. I had figured on using 5 pellets to hit the high spot, it took 15. 25.4gr at 825.3 FPS equals 38.52FPEI thought I had some heavier pellets, but will have to order. Tom

Sweet!

Bummers on the bad gauge. Happens though. Where will you get your parts? Nice to know these things.

Explains a lot too!

FYI for a side bar:You can create a table in MS Word and paste it to the post you are creating *OR* you can do the same in Excel. Of course, just the text and table will show up . . . but don't toggle out of HTML when you paste it or it won't show up right. Gets confusing but with some effort you'll figure it out.

Too, there are always the table and cells tags in BB code but that's not for the faint hearted of posters. I can shoot you a copy of my signature and you could figure it out---I'm sure you could pick out my text from the code and substitute your own and work the code from that point. Not really hard---just meticulous.
As a matter of fact, here it is:

Code:

[table][tr] [td]1. Walther Falcon Hunter .22 -No Tune needed off the shelf
2. Evanix Rainstorm .22 Tuned: [url=http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com]Saddle Mountain Gun Smith[/url]
3. Career 707 Infinity .22 Tuned: [url=http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com]Saddle Mountain Gun Smith[/url]
4. RWS Career 707 Carbine .22
[/td] [td]5. RWS Career 707 Carbine .25
6. Sumatra 2500 500cc .25 -No Tune needed off the shelf.
7. Career 707 Ultra 9mm Tuned: [url=http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com]Saddle Mountain Gun Smith[/url]
8. Sam Yang .45 Big Bore Tuned: [url=http://saddlemountaingunsmith.com]Saddle Mountain Gun Smith[/url][/td][/tr][/table]

This is just a working example so that you can get a feel for how it works if you don't know already. I suggest a little boning up on the code at just about any Google Search for BB Code and what it is that you want to accomplish. Can make you look real good even, if like me, you don't know squat! LOL!

By the way, ignor the code tags: They are just there to make the complete code show up so that you can see it as code and not what my signature actually looks like. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

I downloaded an excel spreadsheet with all the pellet and shot string full info goodies on it, but could not get the pellet weight to change. I'll try again later, using code to change colors really messes up the post. I think that's where the big blank spot in the middle of the message came from.

Series 1 is number of shots at what FPS.
Series 2 is what you left me with in HPA at what shot.

Give me more numbers and I could have given you a better image with regard to comparing your air tube pressures with your shots as you went. But I think this is enough to prove both our points, right?

What is so wild is that even though you are starting off with a higher value HPA, your FPS actually climbs the less HPA you have in your air tube----*until* you hit that sweet spot.

It really doesn't help to go more than that once you find it. For me, I want consistency. The more even and more consistent my fill pressure is against output, the more accurate I'll be, or, rather, the pellet will fly. I don't like compensating my cross hairs or trying to remember the shot count to a point of accuracy---especially when I may grab one of 8 different air guns using a variation of shot in each one. I just couldn't do it otherwise. Too, with such a variation, I personally think it would be hard to follow the ladder of trajectory accuracy after that many shots to get there. It would be just too hard for yours truly to do these days. I’m confounded by the simple things in life now let alone complicating them! LOL!

Just IMHO, you should pick a pellet and footnote it mentally or otherwise and be able to reference the fill pressure you need for it if you can't use something like a power wheel easily accessed like on some of the Korean Air Guns---this last unavailable, you are stuck with what the Air Gun Valve grants you in pressure so you'll have to stick with that weight and know when to stop filling the air tube.

Ah, but, again, just my humble opinion.

Enjoy!

ORairgunner wrote:I downloaded an excel spreadsheet with all the pellet and shot string full info goodies on it, but could not get the pellet weight to change. I'll try again later, using code to change colors really messes up the post. I think that's where the big blank spot in the middle of the message came from.

Tom

Sounds like you have a locked sheet. Share? Send it to me via email and I can take a look at it and maybe help you out some.

Tell me more and I can help more.

Good luck with it.

I think I just figured it out, I was expecting the spread sheet to calculate FPE, the pellet weight is just there for general information. I can change it, but it doesn't enter the calculations. The speeds can be changed and does change the chart. Neat for making charts though. I see that I can copy the chart and suppose that it could be pasted in a post. I'll send you a copy, you may want to use it. I think this chart could be changed to calculate FPE etc also by adding to the spread sheet.
Tom

ORairgunner wrote:I think I just figured it out, I was expecting the spread sheet to calculate FPE, the pellet weight is just there for general information. I can change it, but it doesn't enter the calculations. The speeds can be changed and does change the chart. Neat for making charts though. I see that I can copy the chart and suppose that it could be pasted in a post. I'll send you a copy, you may want to use it. I think this chart could be changed to calculate FPE etc also by adding to the spread sheet.
Tom

Yea, that's just a spreed sheet turned into a chart.



Check this out: Above, where I posted my graph? This is what I used to make it.


But you have to have a little math savvy about you to do it. For instance, I simply moved the decimal places on the FPS listings and then added the same ratio to your HPA numbers to get it in the same chart to read it more accurately. So, no, your HPA numbers didn't START with an 8 anything but left to a figure like 2800 psi, the chart, with both on there, would have been very long and almost impossible to compare at a glance so I made them all in the same range by also moving a decimal along with adding to what it would take to get within the same range. Look at the figures hard a little bit and you'll see what I did. The ratio is still the same just lower on the chart this way. If I had more than 3 sets of numbers to pull from getting the HPA you were using in PSI, it would have looked better and matched up, mostly in reverse of use of air and the wild thing about it, when I made the graph.



Tell you what, check out this link: http://spreadsheets.about.com/od/excelcharts/ss/90209linegraph_3.htm

It's mostly for 2003 Excel but it covers the changes in 2007 and the version I use. It's useful for seeing the numbers visually but you have to add in some data to it if you want to compare it without doing a graph overlay. (Translated means more work)

Whatadaya tink, Spanky? (ah, yea, dating myself with a Little Rascals reference but I think they were SO cute sometimes!)

Oh, and by the by, you'll need a trajectory program to be able to calulate the pellet x's FPS x's distance and even windage can be added in.

I use Hawke Chair Gun Pro. Got it for free---I think because I have a Hawke Sidwinder, not for sure on that one. I can shoot you a link if you want then you could check it out regardless. You want I should?

And you do get the plus and minus signs in the upper right hand corner now, don't you?

??

-Will

One last thing, Tom:

If you want to post it, just move the chart to another sheet. Then copy that and then open up Paint. Paste it in the empty field. Add to or take from more photo editing like as text box, etc, then, save it as a Jpeg or similar file. You can upload that file to a post then or put it some place like photobucket for a remote site reference. Easy to do.

Just time consuming.

Ug, Will hates time consuming!

-Will

You should check out the herd in the Staff's Lounge.

I finally got them all in one place! LOL

I have chairgun, so far, I just use it to figure drop at 100Yds to get on target with a scope. Remember what with buying guns, ordering scopes, and finishing up the concrete gun vault, I haven't had time to use any of my toys fully. Just bits and pieces.
Tom

The is a little bit more inclusive than the first post I made about graphing out those last shot strings.

I put in a power curve that clearly shows that the power actual climbs the less HPA you use until you get to the sweet spot. The last numbers are #21 and those are the averages as indicated from the data sheet I included.

I'll email you this sheet I used. It will give you a head start on making your own and configuring it.

You know, it occurred to me that I could make a note book for each of my Air Rifles and include such graphs and information. It would give me something to do anyway. No life here as exampled in my Excel bumbling attempts.

I used Paint in XP Pro to add in the little extras. And presto, whalla! Here you have it: Something that looks good but easy to do and definitely does not make me an expert at this sort of thing.

But, it *is* handy though.

*Side Bar* Yea, I know about the time thing. Yov'e got a lot going on. It took me, litrally, hours to figure out these little tricks and gizzmos. But it will be fun, when I have the time, and the drive to do so, to apply them in a more ordered and professional fashion to a notebook for each of my Air Rifles.

Great stuff though. Still waiting on those pics for the vault! You promissed!